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Well, since we're discussing this, I might add that I don't hate Cameron, I just feel he's trying to hard to be the cool leader. I suppose John is very much the cocky flyboy too, but since he's not Jack's replacement, it's less noticeable, and well, he's more charming, and he teases the scientists, whereas Cameron just makes fun of them.

Also it was the Jack/Daniel friendship which was fun too watch, whereas Daniel and Cameron don't even call each other by their first names.

But seriously, not one fic comes to mind?

From:

kazbaby

Actually if Cameron made fun of the scientists he wouldn't want to work with the best (his words in Avalon). He's also not trying to be the cool leader, he knows he's playing catch up in a big way.

I also love Jack and Daniel's friendship. I just think that Cam and Daniel are just getting to know one another. :)

From:

jcorrington.livejournal.com

because taking a glance at the comments and realizing that no one has offered a suggestion
here's one where Mitchell is kinda set up by John with the lemon. Stories actually apart of a series. I know they exisit but I can't find them right now, just had to redo my links.

http://www.wraithbait.com/viewstory.php?sid=13147

From:

jcorrington.livejournal.com

also try this one http://www.wraithbait.com/viewstory.php?sid=9495
it's another Peagus Project response that targets both John and Carmeron stupidity.

Honestly right now point an unloaded gun at his head and say it's encourage him

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Oh, thank you! The stories were great! Well, I had to read the whole rover stories in order for the first one to make sense, but it was great!
Any more?

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So any fics where Daniel's unique awesomeness shines through, or where Mitchell especially gets a new appreciation for him?

That would be "Avalon" Parts 1 and 2. And pretty much the entire run of Seasons 9 and 10. It's canon that Cameron appreciates the hell out of Carter and Daniel's big brains, and Teal'c's century of experience, and basically thinks they're the awesomest people ever.

Also, when has Mitchell ever tried to copy Jack's behaviour? I must have missed it. Can you please point to specific examples, then explain why it proves that Mitchell is trying to imitate anyone, and isn't just being himself?

If you really want fic recs for Mitchell-bashing and John "making it up" to Rodney, I suggest you go to

sgagenrefinders. I'm sure they have lots and lots of fic to rec.

No offence to you, because you're free to like what you like, and I truly believe everyone's entitled to their opinion and personal preferences, but how would you really feel if I used the words you've used in this post to describe Rodney? That he is a "bully" and "stupid" and "doesn't have the charm", and that I want to read fics in which he "feels guilty" and gets "reprimanded" and "where he gets taken down a peg or two" and other characters "have a go at him".

You may not have intended it, but you've very nicely indulged in some character bashing here, and I do not appreciate it at all.

I hate fics like ~~this~~ because it assumes that the Stargate characters are IDIOTS and that an Air Force officer who regularly lays down his life to protect scientists and Earth and, y'know, the galaxy would *actually* *purposely* put someone's life in danger for a joke. Because it's not like Rodney doesn't reguarly eat breakfast with his team, who often have orange juice or oranges at the same table with him and NOTHING HAPPENS. He's perfectly fine. Go watch the show again. [ETA2: Having actually read the fic, I'm retracting the first sentence of this paragraph. But it still holds true for MANY of the fics of this "lemon conspiracy" genre.]

I considered posting anonymously, but you know what? I'm so tired of this crap and I have said nothing that is not perfectly valid. While my "tone" is perhaps a bit angry, that's because I *am*. I don't understand why loving Rodney means putting down other characters. All it does is make fandom write out-of-character fic and drive canon-loving fans out of their minds.

ETA: Just to make it clear I'm not, like, bearing a grudge against you as an individual (rather than just being so damn fed-up with fanon and fandom as a whole) I do have a rec for you. Cascade (http://www.geocities.com/kylielee1000/stargate/02/cascade.html) by

kylielee1000, which is Daniel/Cameron set early SG-1 S9. It's Daniel trying to communicate with interesting aliens, and Mitchell crushing on him so damn hard, and the two of them finally coming together. Beautifully written.

Edited Date: 7 June 2009 02:40 am (UTC)

From:

rubygirl29.livejournal.com

Read the fic on your rec. Loved it! Love Kylie's Sheppard/Ronon fics, too.

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Ok, I didn't mean my comment to sound offensive to anyone, but having reread it with your words in mind, I see that it did, and I'm sorry. I didn't even really mean it that way.

1. Daniel is brilliant in Season 9&10, he figures out all the clues, but he seems more like a really book-smart soldier than the passionate civilian he was before. There isn't a single episode dedicated to Daniel's special ability to make friends and allies through his kindness and passionate nature and high moral standards like he did in Scorched Earth or with the Unas. That's what I miss.

2. That's what I feel Cameron sees in him. He admires Daniel, because Daniel's a legend on SG1 and because his smarts have saved the world, but he sees the battle-hardened brillant almost soldier, not a scientist. Sam and later-season Daniel cannot be compared to scientists like Dr. Lee or even Rodney, and every time Cameron is confronted with a "real" scientist, he acts quite dismissive. Sorry, but that's how I see it. If he'd been confronted with season 1 Daniel, he would have dismissed him right out of hand.

I must admit I might be too used to Jack to give Cameron a fair chance, but I also feel it would have been better if Cameron had a distinctive separate personality. Now, I understand you feel differently about it, but I don't see one. He is a cocky flyboy with all the loyalty, skill and other qualities Jack had, with the same sarcasm, impatience, slight disregard for rules... like a younger copy.

Also, I don't presume the Air Force colonels are idiots. I respect their dedication to keeping everyone safe. I didn't even condider that Rodney's life could be in danger, no way would Mitchell have followed through with his threat. Nevertheless, Sheppard and Cameron telling Rodney to shut up in the briefing taking the piss out of him, even though they specifically needed his help, the joke with the lemon, the condescending attitude aboard the Prometheus,in my opinion EVERYTHING in that episode was just unnecessarily mean and left an aftertaste of cool kids bullying the geek.

Anyway, thanks for the recommendation,I read it and as you said it was beautifully written. Although in the show, Cameron develops a special bond with Teal'c and Sam, but I haven't seen a single episode that hints at a special connection between him and Daniel.

OK, I'll stop now, hope I haven't driven you even angrier. Sorry for the dissertation

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OK, I'll stop now, hope I haven't driven you even angrier.
Well, I'll admit I was okay with your initial comment, but the paragraph you added upon editing it did make me a little upset. (Will get to that later.) But it's fine. I appreciate the apology and I know you didn't mean it that way. I've done the same thing so I get how easy it is to fall in the trap of putting down one character in favour of another. I owe such a big apology to Sam fans for my attitude over the years as a Daniel fan!

Re Daniel in S9-10, I understand where you're coming from even if I don't exactly agree. I miss seeing Daniel reaching out, connecting with new civilisations. OTOH, I really like that he's changed, that his character has not remained static. I can't imagine anyone who has seen the things he has wouldn't be deeply affected, or become hardened. I find Daniel's reluctance to open up to Vala (and Cam, less obviously) to be interesting and believable. And his passionate nature still shines through, in "Origin", in "Pegasus Project", in "The Quest", and more.

One fic bunny I'm toying with is Daniel meeting Lya again after the Ori war, and Lya grieving over what Daniel's become, and Daniel holding some anger at the Nox for playing Switzerland. It wouldn't be a pretty conversation, but I think they'd find a way to eventually reconcile.

every time Cameron is confronted with a "real" scientist, he acts quite dismissive.
When has Cameron been dismissive of scientists? Seriously, when has this ever happened in canon? If you give me examples, I will apologise and take your point. But Cam is nothing but respectful to Lam, to Lee (Cam shouts once in "Avalon, Part 2", but he's not disrespectful or insulting, just agitated), to the scientists in "Collateral Damage", Dr. Kelly in "Stronghold", Dr. Reimer in "Morpheus". In "Origin", Landry says, "Just got a report from Dr. Lindsay on P3X-421." and Mitchell knew off the top of his head that Lindsay was an anthropologist. He knows the names of the scientists, their specialities, he goes to back them up in the field, listens when they speak.

When you say "real" scientists, I think you're distinguishing Lee and Rodney as "quirky personalities", like Dr. Novak who hiccups when she's nervous, the geeks, the nerds, guys who play WoW. Which has nothing to do with their profession. I just don't understand this fanon that Cam is dismissive of scientists based solely on "The Pegasus Project", which is an entirely different matter. There, he's not dismissive of Rodney as a scientist-- he just doesn't like Rodney as a person. (More on that later.)

Yes, Cam gets impatient with Vala when she tries to con her way into something. He (and everyone else in the room) once didn't laugh at Dr. Lee's joke (but please note that he and Dr. Lee bounce ideas off each other quite well in "Avalon, Part 2"). That is a FAR CRY with saying Cam acts dismissive, or would've dismissed S1 Daniel. More often than not, science makes Cam go "cooool!"

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I must admit I might be too used to Jack to give Cameron a fair chance, but I also feel it would have been better if Cameron had a distinctive separate personality.
I think Cam and John both share some of Jack's qualities. (Though neither really has Jack's brand of smart-aleck sarcastic. Cam's more cheerful quips, and John's humour is more deadpan.) But to quote Landry, "All pilots are Type A personalities." As a cocky flyboy who disregards rules, I'd say Cam leans more conservative than John. Cam's not the maverick, John is. Cam is impatient, a go-getter (compared to John's slacker persona), eye on the prize. John adapts to new situations but dislikes change. And Jack? Jack is a veteran, he's a veteran before we even meet him. I feel like we could peel back layer after layer and still not know everything about Jack O'Neill.

Nevertheless, Sheppard and Cameron telling Rodney to shut up in the briefing taking the piss out of him, even though they specifically needed his help, the joke with the lemon, the condescending attitude aboard the Prometheus,in my opinion EVERYTHING in that episode was just unnecessarily mean and left an aftertaste of cool kids bullying the geek.
THIS is the part of your comment that really bothered me. Because you're saying that John and Cam are wrong to tell Rodney to shut up, when in fact Rodney is the one who keeps interrupting Sam every two seconds. Why is he even talking? Sam is running the meeting, she's got a plan already set, she has covered every single point that Rodney brings up (which he'd know, if he'd just let the woman speak), and it's extremely frustrating to me as a feminist to see a female scientist get continually interrupted by a man who thinks he knows better, when really, he's just dragging out the meeting even longer. Time is of the essence! If he'd simply let Sam finish speaking, then filled in anything she missed, I sincerely doubt anyone would've told him to shut up.

The fact that Rodney "can't help himself" does not excuse his behaviour. (I'm not even going to get into his inappropriate comments to Sam later on the Odyssey.) Now, I enjoy Rodney's rants for the most part, and on SGA he's given far more leeway to insult and interrupt and generally own the stage. I don't mind this! It's fun! Hewlitt is great at those long, complicated back-and-forths with Zelenka and others. But this does not mean his behaviour is okay. In as much as Cam is "dismissive", yes-- he does not appreciate Rodney's ego in general, or his behaviour toward Sam in particular. Rodney is a grown man and he's more than capable of behaving like a professional. He can be brave and heroic and selfless. But in this episode? There was also a lot of his, shall we say, less pleasing qualities. The fact that Cam notices and disapproves of these qualities is hardly Cam's fault.

I mean, I'm willing to give you the "being mean to McKay" thing if you'll give me "Rodney started it".

ETA: Fixed David Hewlitt's name! Also wanted to say, since you don't know me, I actually like Rodney as a character. He's not my favourite, but I enjoy him in canon. I'm just a bit leery of the fanon that's grown up around him.

Edited Date: 7 June 2009 08:07 pm (UTC)

From:

*sigh* I feel like I may need to apologise for coming down so hard on Rodney in my above comment. It might seem like I think he's a jerk, and that just isn't the case! I mean, sometimes he is a jerk, and so is Daniel, and John's not exactly immune, nor is Cam, nor is Jack, and Teal'c's got a vengeance thing the size of Jupiter, while Sam's flaw is that she's got horrible taste in men. I think it's perfectly okay for characters to have flaws, even bad and petty and stupid flaws, and to still love them because they're not perfect.

The way Cam and Rodney behave in "The Pegasus Project" doesn't really bother me. Neither of them are particularly friendly to one other, but so what? They managed to accomplish the mission and win two big ones for the good guys. Sometimes you're just going to have characters that rub each other the wrong way. Cam's never going to be Rodney's best friend, even while he respects the man's abilities. And I really doubt that Rodney's been scarred for life or whatever, because seriously, he is not some fragile little thing whose feelings have been deeply wounded. That is just insulting to him, as a character. (And if people do argue that he's been wounded for life, then they should ask themselves how Rodney's science department feels, taking that much verbal abuse from him for 5 years.) Sam, of course, has it the worst, but even she's not such a fragile flower that she can't handle Rodney-- as she so awesomely demonstrates in SGA S4.

So again, it's not the episode itself that bothers me. I just don't understand this vilification of Cam (and John) within certain parts of SGA fandom, as if the sum total of Cameron Mitchell's character is that this one time he was mean to Rodney, while Rodney gets a free pass for his behaviour.

One day, I should a post on the "Trinity" phenomenon.

ETA: Last edit/comment, promise. I realise I didn't actually apologise. I am sorry if I came across like I'm attacking you as a Rodney fan. That was certainly not my intention. And if I'm coming across like a Rodney-basher, I'm sorry for that too, though I stand by my belief that it's okay for characters to have flaws.

Edited Date: 7 June 2009 11:54 pm (UTC)

From:

And I really doubt that Rodney's been scarred for life or whatever, because seriously, he is not some fragile little thing whose feelings have been deeply wounded

Could we put that on a fandom wide banner or something please? Things would go so much more smoothly then.

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Heh. So true.

I think a good case could be made for Rodney being a bundle of neuroses, but then who in Atlantis isn't? Even Teyla, for all her calm and meditation, is not really as zen and controlled as her facade would have you believe. But that's not the same thing as the fanon of Rodney being emotionally traumatized by lemons. You know? Dead teammates = trauma. Genocide = trauma. Being threatened by lemons? Does not equal trauma.

What I'd love to see someone tackle is Rodney fixating on one of his allergies, like bees or citrus, as a way to repress/cope with the real trauma of losing Elizabeth or Carson. I think that would be far more interesting.

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What I'd love to see someone tackle is Rodney fixating on one of his allergies, like bees or citrus, as a way to repress/cope with the real trauma of losing Elizabeth or Carson. I think that would be far more interesting.

NOw, *that* I would read. I'd even read a Pegasus Project take on it - that he obsesses over Cam and the lemon instead of the possible loss of Earth to the Ori - as long as it didn't slide off into 'Cam's evil for not psychically knowing that's what it was.' Or, hmm, post-Trinity fic where Rodney's convinced they're all shunning him and actually most of them don't know anything about it, he's just blown normality out of all proportion. Again, as long as it doesn't wander off into 'they're all mean people for not realising he thinks that.'

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Ooh, I like your ideas! I'm tempted to write the Pegasus Project one, mostly because I wonder how the expedition team felt, knowing that Earth could very well fall and all their families were in danger.

Again, as long as it doesn't wander off into 'they're all mean people for not realising he thinks that.'
Exactly. It's just so contrary to canon! Ronon and Teyla mostly roll their eyes at Rodney when he's relating his "nightmare" about Sam inviting him to a dinner of lemon chicken. But when push comes to shove and the real danger shows up? John is willing to risk himself in Rodney's dreams, and Rodney's willing to risk himself right back. How many times have they helped each other, faced death together? This is who these people are.

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I'm tempted to write the Pegasus Project one

Do it, do it, do it, do it! Please! You'd do an awesome job of it!

John is willing to risk himself in Rodney's dreams, and Rodney's willing to risk himself right back. How many times have they helped each other, faced death together? This is who these people are.

This is what I don't get about the anti-John pro-Rodney stuff. I mean, I sort of get making your favourite character nicer, but isn't the life-saving stuff one of the core parts of their relationship? How do people go from that to John's mean and horrible and picks on Rodney? It makes no sense to me. On the other hand, apparently it makes sense to the people who do it, since someone came and explained it to me last time I was ranting about this in my journal.

That said, maybe they say the same about us Cam/John people - oh my God, how can they take five minutes of on-screen together time and spin out a relationship when John has Rodney?!?!?

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On the other hand, apparently it makes sense to the people who do it, since someone came and explained it to me last time I was ranting about this in my journal.
Oooh, link please? I'm too curious!!

That said, maybe they say the same about us Cam/John people - oh my God, how can they take five minutes of on-screen together time and spin out a relationship when John has Rodney?!?!?
You know, I have absolutely no problem with people scratching their heads over John/Cam and how we can spin out first times and an entire history and an established relationship between them from 5 minutes of canon. I just don't understand why they have to bring up Rodney. What does Rodney have anything to do with it? Rodney's a great character on his own or with others, and I've even 'shipped John/Rodney. But he doesn't have, like, proprietary rights over John, or vice versa.

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But he doesn't have, like, proprietary rights over John, or vice versa.

That, right there! That's the problem. All the people who think he *does*. Same reason people right Keller as an omg, mean bitch, for stealing Rodney away from John, who clearly has some prior claim to him despite never actually attempting to make it. It's the whole meant to be thing, I think, hence the reason they *have* to bring Rodney into John/Cam.

Oooh, link please? I'm too curious!!

Here you go (Oooh, link please? I'm too curious!!) (mainly argosy). I'm still miffed with her, because she edited her last comment to take out an original 'sorry' about not having time to be analyse-y, which, fine, she's not sorry, but I just thought was really rude and impolite. And also because I felt like I was being told off for not liking this stuff.

It's possible I way over-reacted, but I'm British, we value politeness!

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Oops, your link doesn't work!

The Keller bashing is insane. God knows I was guilty of the same thing years ago with Sam (Jack/Daniel 'shipper here) but at least I never called Sam a whiny bitch or other, nasty names I won't repeat. And even those who don't outright call Keller names are so negative, judging her with such a double standard.

Heh. I used to be such a polite girl, but 10 years online has made me much more careless about my manners!

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No, that would be because I forgot to put the actual link into the code:

http://bluflamingo.livejournal.com/86968.html?thread=775608#t775608

In my defence, it's 11pm on a Monday and I'm distracted by Jack O'Neill making John Sheppard crawl for him.

And even those who don't outright call Keller names are so negative, judging her with such a double standard

Ugh, tell me about it. She's not the doctor who helped develop a virus that killed thousands of people, or colluded with their enemy! Plus, Keller's great - she's the only person in the entire show who actually behaves like an adult about the person she likes (except for possibly Teyla and Kanaan, though we don't see enough of them to judge).

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I would tell you to go to sleep, except now you've got me all intrigued by possible Jack/John porn! *g*

I'm glad there are folks like you and horridporrid who'll defend Keller. I'm finding I like Carson v1.0 better upon re-watch, but I don't think they shouldve brought him back. And with all the Keller-bashing, I find myself liking her more and more, like she needs *somebody* in her corner. I may have to write her for my femgenficathon!

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I may have to write her for my femgenficathon!

Yay! She needs more people writing nice things about her.

I think I'm going to write Sora again, which should guarantee that absolutely no-one reads it!

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Heh. You should totally write Sora! I like her, but I'll admit it's been ages (not since S1 was airing!) that I read any fic about her. I may have to go back into your fic index!

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Sorry, haven't looked at this thread in a few days, I've started quite the debate, haven't I?
Actually I was busy rewatching the last seasons of Stargate, convinced that I could come up with lots of examples to prove you wrong. And I must say, it seems I do indeed owe you and all Mitchell fans an apology. I've not found a single instance where Cameron behaves badly towards a scientist apart from Rodney. I don't know why I was so convinced I'd seen him be a condescending bastard, I think it was partly a preconceived notion of his personality and partly previously read fanfiction being confused with factual canon.
So yeah, I do apologize, while I may never like him, I did defame his character without due cause.

As for what you say of Rodney, well I suppose it's true too. I mean the part about him giving back as good as he gets and him treating his scientists in a similar manner.
"The fact that Rodney "can't help himself" does not excuse his behaviour."
That sentence made me laugh because I've actually always excused his behaviour exactly for that reason. But yeah, you did come down a bit hard on him. He has zero social skills, but he's not a sexist. He genuinely admires Sam's intellect and respects Elisabeth's leadership. I really don't think that you should be offended as a feminist, just maybe cringe at how juvenile his flirting is.
But I'm willing to concede your point, Cameron's and Rodney's personality clash is not proof of Cameron's evil nature! I might have been a bit too overprotective. But I still didn't particularly like John in that episode, even though I usually like his character.

As for Daniel, I understand that he changed a lot in ten years, it would have been unavoidable, but just because he's become more jaded and battle-hardened, doesn't mean he couldn't occasionaly still display the wonder of discovery and inherent passion he had in the first seasons. That's simply what I miss most in the later seasons.

Anyway, this post hurt my pride quite a bit to write, so I hope you accept the apology.
Why don't you help me change my mind about Cameron? Can you rec me some fics which show him as really likeable and give his character some depth?
I've just read all the other comments, and please no John/Cam. After all the comments, I'm almost embarassed to admit that I'm one of those who think that if John and Rodney are gay, they should automatically belong together. I guess we're gonna disagree about everything :-)

Although I do like Keller. I think she's a brilliant doctor with a great easy-going friendly personality. I DO feel she was made into a bit of a Mary Sue, I mean that episode with the runner where she fought a Wraith in hand-to hand combat was a bit over
the top, she's a great gal, but she didn't suddendy turn into Superwoman because she had a few workout sessions with Ronon. But yes, overall she's one of my favorite female characters in the Stargate fandom.
Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now

(deleted comment)

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Hey, no worries about Cam. Us Cam-fans tend to stick to our little corner of fandom, so it's just a bit of a shock to be reminded that not everyone loves him the way we do ;)

That sentence made me laugh because I've actually always excused his behaviour exactly for that reason. But yeah, you did come down a bit hard on him. He has zero social skills, but he's not a sexist.
Interestingly, I never used the word "sexist". *g* But yes, I understand what you're trying to say. I think Rodney's gotten a LOT better since "48 Hours", because we go from him being a sexist ass to Sam specifically ("dumb blonde") to him being a fully fleshed-out character on SGA. You're right that Rodney admires Sam. I'm just saying it's not something that happened overnight. His behaviour toward her has definitely improved over the years. (It's an interesting contrast to Rodney in the "Moebius" and "Road Not Taken" AUs.)

You're right about Rodney and Elizabeth. He really did admire her, and miss her as his friend.

However, I want to explain what I mean by "behaviour" because I feel like we're coming at the characters/shows from opposite directions. I subscribe to the school of thought that we live in a systemically racist, sexist, homophobic culture, and that Rodney, Cam, Daniel, etc, are steeped in straight white male privilege they can't even see. It's particularly true of the Stargate franchise writers. (Alicia Vega, anyone? Gay, female, Latina--and dead.)

If I say that a person has said a racist thing, I'm not saying they're an evil person and should be shunned. I'm saying they've said something that is wrong, that they should learn why they were wrong, apologise, and stop saying it in the future. I hate that Cam made a fat joke ("Uninvited"). What I appreciated was that Landry called him on his behaviour, and Cam apologised. (I suspect the writers intended us to think Landry had a stick up his ass, and for us to sympathise with Cam who was just kidding around, but that's not how I read it.)

So when I say that, as a feminist, I'm annoyed by some of Rodney's behaviour, I'm not saying he's a bad guy. I'm saying he is doing a thing that is wrong, which is an expression of the sexist culture he was raised in. (And the writers did it on purpose in "The Pegasus Project". Fans were supposed to sympathise with Cam, not Rodney. Which was a stupid assumption on the writers' part, because obviously the SGA fans didn't feel that way!) The point is that Rodney learns and grows. Atlantis has been so good for him in that respect. When it comes to excusing Rodney because he can't help himself, I look at episodes like "McKay and Mrs. Miller" and "Quarantine" where Rodney is aware of his flaws and is trying to work past them. He's made so much progress since "48 Hours", he's become a whole other person. (There was a brilliant McShep fic I read recently that dealt with how much Rodney has grown. If I can find it again, I'll link you!)

You're right that I'm too hard on Rodney. I tend to knee-jerk react when it comes to Rodney, but that's not fair to him as a character. I really do apologise. And I accept your apology, and I'm really sorry your pride was hurt because I never meant for that to happen. I appreciate the way you've reconsidered Cam, and I hope my explanation for how I'm approaching the show helps mitigate some of the more critical things I've said about Rodney.

For the record, I don't have a problem with people OTPing John/Rodney. I was a Jack/Daniel OTPer for years, so I know how it goes ;) I 'ship John with practically everyone, which I'm sure gets head-scratching from OTPers. Interestingly, I recently friended

havocthecat, a het-shipper who writes John/Elizabeth and loves Daniel/Janet. We have almost nothing in common, but I friended her because she is so enthusiastic about female characters and such a good feminist. To quote the Vulcans: IDIC. *g*

I'll have to get back to you about Cam fanfic. Most of what I've got bookmarked is John/Cam, obviously!

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Wow. I was about to link you to a couple of metafandom posts that do a better job explaining why "zero social skills" is not an excuse for saying racist/sexist/etc things. But then I noticed that you have

kill_dr_weir and

die_carter_die friended (you're watching the comms, but haven't joined as a member).

I'm not really sure what to say here. I guess those comms are supposed to be "all in good fun", but I don't really understand the mentality that says revelling in the death of female characters is no big deal.

So I'm just going to leave you with two links:

1) On rape and men (http://cereta.livejournal.com/652008.html) by

cereta. If you've been surfing LJ in the last week, you've probably seen this post linked all over the place. It is deeply uncomfortable to read, and profoundly important to share.

2) The Air Force and rape (http://tafkarfanfic.livejournal.com/250279.html) by

tafkarfanfic. I saw Tafkar's post right after I submitted my above reply to you, and I wanted to use it as an example of why sexism on Stargate is sexism in real life.

Because art reflects life reflects art. Rodney staring at Sam's ass and Daniel blaming Sha're for her own rape are not simply "bad social skills". Finding new and creative ways to kill off female characters is not harmless fun. Women get raped and murdered all the time because we live in a systemically sexist, women-hating culture. I'm not saying John/the Atlantis writers being so hard on Teyla for not telling him about her pregnancy is on the same level as rape and murder, but it's all part of the same thing, it's all tied together and none if it is harmless fun.

ETA: If you think I'm being too hard on you, I'm not really sure I can apologise at this moment. I realise I'm judging you solely on the fact that you have those two comms on your user profile. Please feel free to explain your personal position on those comms, or your opinion of what I've said so far, and I'll do my best to listen with an open mind.

ETA2: For the sake of accuracy, I want to retract my position on Daniel blaming Sha're for her own rape in "Secrets". While he is shocked and angry over Sha're's pregnancy, and he certainly speaks to her in an incredibly patronizing/accusatory tone, he never says he blames her for being raped and impregnated, and when Teal'c suggests using Sha're for intel, he immediately rejects the idea. So his initial reaction is awful, but his underlying love and loyalty to Sha're come through soon enough.

Edited Date: 15 June 2009 01:09 am (UTC)

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Right, I get why you're shocked, but no I'm not watching these sites. When I was watching season 4 and 5 of Stargate, I really grew to dislike Sam, and the Sam/Jack flirtation, and I wanted to read a bashing fic that would show Daniel clearly eclipsing her. Like along the lines of VINDICATION by Shedoc.

I stumbled upon the die "Carter" site and link to "kill Weir" and simply bookmarked them for future reading. Bookmarking being saving the community.
I didn't realise they REALLY killed off the characters, I thought it'd be like a "Daniel's cooler than Sam community". When I did look into it, I was actually quite disturbed at the mindless violence and bloodlust of most fics. I might dislike some characters, but I don't spend time imagining gruesome ways for them to die! Since I don't actually use my account except for posting reviews, I simply forget I still had them there.
Also while we're on the subject, I am particularly shocked at the fics which imagine in gruesome details just all the ways Daniel (or Harry Potter) were abused as foster children. I know it's called hurt/comfort, but I just don't understand this morbid fascination with child rape or abuse.

I get that you dislike bashing, but seriously, isn't Schadenfreude a part of human nature? I mean I don't want to see Sam get raped or murdered or tortured or even in pain, but from my pov, seeing Sam lose out to Daniel, seeing her hopes dashed, seeing MY character the uncontested winner gives me satisfaction. I know you'll argue that liking one character doesn't mean having to put down another, and most of the time it doesn't, but after I've seen a particularly annoying episode, I like a bashing fic. Maybe it’s just jealousy, I mean she is pretty perfect. I don't know if that makes me a horrible person, but I can't deny that's how I feel.

Now, as for your remarks on our society, I admit that you're getting a bit too philosophical for me. Are you quite well educated?
I've thought about what you've said and I can't decide whether I think you're being too touchy ( I mean the ingrained prejudice in our society, not your view on rapes), or whether I was being too short-sighted. I think it also depends on our backgrounds. I'm French and I truly believe that we are a relatively unprejudiced society. I admit my grandmother's generation might still carry some prejudice but I believe my mother's and my generation are almost free of homophobia, racism or sexism. But then Le Pen’s near ascension to power comes to mind, so maybe I’m just willfully blind to it.
But since I don’t think I live in a prejudiced society, I find it hard to see prejudice in others too. Rodney staring at Sam’s ass or his tasteless comments, is just him making an ass out of himself as men are known to do, not part of a deeper ingrained woman-hating society. Just a distasteful joke here or there. No bearing on women’s actual merits. Same with Cam’s fat comment. Ultimately no one really cares about a person’s weight, so it didn’t really do any harm. Although I was a bit shocked at Daniel’s treatment or Sha’re in Secrets too.

My first thought when I read your comment was if everyone was so touchy “you’d have to watch everything you say for fear of always offending someone”, but then I asked myself why it’s so easy to make a thoughtless comment. I mean no one would accidentally make a tasteless anti-Semitic joke, so why it is still allright to joke about ‘dumb blondes’ or ‘queers’. So, quite probably you’re right and we still are even subconsciously being influenced by a prejudiced and very narrow-minded way of thinking.
Obviously I’m naïve and too optimistic about human nature. I read your links. When I read Cereta’s , I thought she was totally exaggerating and she was really quite unfair to judge all men by the acts of a few sickos. Then I read the second post about the rapes, and I was quite shaken. I don’t get it, I mean why, and who? Is it actually human nature, or is it the military having another mindset? Maybe rape is just another weapon to them, to show dominance? I don’t know what to think.
God, I’ve written a novel, I don’t think I’ve ever had such a detailed exchange in my history of reading fanfiction before. Hope I didn’t bore you.

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I think I understand what you mean about wanting to see your character the uncontested winner, and how that's satisfying or makes you feel better after a frustrating episode (or heck, even after reading a frustrating fic). And I've felt like that too, I won't deny it, so yeah, I can understand where you're coming from. Our fic reading tastes can vary depending on our mood.

I'm not that well educated, and in fact I'm pretty lazy when it comes to learning new things. But in the last year or so I've become more interested in reading about "isms" (racism, sexism, homophobia, able-ism, etc) in Real Life, and in fandom. I've been focused on racism so far. Sometimes it's impossible to avoid, like when Harry Potter fandom had the Miscegenation debate last year (2 years ago?) and when SGA fandom had the Jason Mamoa hair debate, or when professional sci-fi authors had the Race Fail and Mammoth Fail debate earlier this year. I'm also trying to learn more about sexism, since it's one of those almost invisible prejudices-- we're so used to sexism that we don't even notice it any more.

I can't speak to your experiences, because perhaps you've been pretty lucky in not running into a lot of blatant or even subtle racism/sexism/etc in your life. I have a couple of friends in France who haven't been as lucky as you. I live in Canada, which I used to think was so much better than the United States. But even here there is so much racism and sexism, the burden of history (like how Canada has treated our First Nations and Inuit populations), and the harrassment my female friends endure in the office. A lot of times it's just that we're unaware, we don't see it. We like to think we're "colour-blind". As for cereta's post, she did ask for stories about men who are stand-up guys, and I loved reading about all the good men out there. But yeah, it's pretty sickening to read about how prevalant rape is in our society. A lot of those comments in cereta's post were also about how women weren't lucky. It's awful and I'm not sure what we can do to make things better.

Anyway, thanks for responding. You didn't bore me and I hope I didn't bore you. If you're interested in reading more about this stuff, I could probably link you to some good posts to start off, but you'd have to be prepared for a LOT of reading and listening.

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Hi,
Sorry I went on holiday, me and my mom's annual camping trip in the Alps, no internet. Which is why I'm replying so late.
Of course you're not boring me, I'm not part of any forums or discussion groups, so this is actually the first real discussion I've had with a fellow Stargate fan, and so far I've found your replies really well though out and challenging.

"I've been focused on racism so far. Sometimes it's impossible to avoid, like when Harry Potter fandom had the Miscegenation debate last year (2 years ago?) and when SGA fandom had the Jason Mamoa hair debate, or when professional sci-fi authors had the Race Fail and Mammoth Fail debate earlier this year."
I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about, since I just read fics and otherwise tend not to get involved in fandom discussions, stuff like that goes straight over my head.

Please, I'd really appreciate if you linked me sites which deal with discrimination, all the -ism's as you call it, you got me thinking about it, and I'd really like to form an informed opinion about it now, even if I suspect it'll leave me more jaded.
I think I've seen sexism at my workplace too. Just men speaking of women very crudely with no respect for the work they do, just their physical attributes, and I admit I was disgusted at times.
But in all fairness, aren't women just as bad as men? When me and my girl friends have nights in, we go on about men's looks or our boyfriends attributes, and really it's just as degrading, isn't it? We treat men in the same degrading way they treat us, but if they do it, it's an insult, and we should be offended as feminists? This is not meant as an offense to your posts, it's just really thinking aloud about an issue I've not given much thought to in the past.
.
Also, I'v actually encountered sort of reverse homophobia and racism before. I work with a guy who's gay and Croatian. He's a lazy and inconsiderate SOB who wouldn't know the meaning of teamwork if it bit him on the ass. But whenever someone tries to take him to the task about it, he just calls them a homophobic or a racist and the other person usually backs down. And he's not the only person I've met who uses their race or orientation to their benefit. Of course, the majority of people aren't like that, but I'd also like to think the majority of people don't discriminate.

So yes, I'd like to read about these issues and get a clear idea what is really going on in the world, not my view through rose-tinted glasses. If you could help me get started, I'd be very grateful.

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bek78.livejournal.com

may not be quite what you are looking for but in these, John comes around to be on Rodney's side

try "the pegasus postscript" by quasar273
http://quasar273.livejournal.com/3242.html

and "uncomfortable territory" by Ras Elased in 4 parts
http://ras-fic.livejournal.com/2508.html#cutid1

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Thank you. These were great!
Cameron/Rodney made me laugh, especially considering the previous discussion in this thread, but amazingly, it didn't seem unbeliebable at all!
Thanks.

From: (Anonymous)

BREAKING THE CURSE by ETS. Daniel and SG-11 are both suffering under the aegis being a ‘curse’ of bad luck. When a mission has Daniel loaned out to SG-11 and things go wrong, Daniel proves the curse is wrong too.
http://www.stargatefan.com/fictionms/breakcurse.htm

CHOOSE YOUR BATTLES by BRIONHET. The new SG-3 has a few difficult rough edges, and General Hammond figures SG-1 is just the team to polish them away.
http://www.stargatefan.com/fictionabc/ChooseYourBattles.htm

MARKING TIME by REDBYRD. During Watergate, Daniel is reminded of the things he and Teal'c did while Jack was stuck on Edora and Sam was building a particle accelerator. My favorite line? …Sam wasn't buying any. "Daniel, you put away your weapon, walked into the line of fire-" "Crawled, Sam. Crawled into the line of fire."
Edbyrd has written some other good Daniel fics. Among them are FRIENDLY FIRE (where Daniel awesomely puts his own spin-control on the events of Scorched Earth), DAMAGE CONTROL and REARRANGING FATE. Plus others.
http://www.mindspring.com/~redbyrd

TRAINING DAY by RANDOM. "Jack, we've got three new Stargate teams and more civilians than ever in the field now. And they need to work as teams, which means joint off-world training could save some lives." "Totally agree, sir… But I've got a program in place with my team. Carter's more than shown she can take care of herself and take out anyone in her way to doing that. Teal'c--hell, if he gets any more proficient, he'll terrify the other half of the base. And Daniel...." Well, read it and see for youself. =D
http://www.alldanielfic.com/viewstory.php?sid=777

HONOR’S SOLUTION by SGCBEARCUB. This one is a WIP. Chapters 1 through 7 focus on Sam (and she totally rocks) and Chapter 8 on Daniel. He’s awesome, too. SG-1 is doing some on-world training with the Army, who think they do nothing more than Deep Space Radar deskwork. “Dr. Jackson was to be put through basic Special Ops field training. Not the kindergarten feel-good exercise designed for civilian liaisons either. Jackson was to get the full meal deal. Weapons, tactics, and practical things like hand-to-hand and S.E.R.E. training.” This link below is for Chapter 8.
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2686931/8/Honors_Solution

Hope this helps.
Jillyapple1@aol.com

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